Comments on Saving to Inve$t: Church, Religion and Questionable Financial Advice...

I don't want a Pastor at the pulpit preaching the ...

2009-06-01T18:01:52.523-04:00

I don't want a Pastor at the pulpit preaching the stock market is the sign of the beast or something crazy like that! Or, offering me financial advice! I like to think that most churches aren't taking advantage of people affected by this poor economy with false teachings either.

If there were a correlation in the message related to the finances, then I could see that. An example is tithing - the Bible is very clear about offering our firsfruits to the Lord. That's a very hard topic to cover when so many are unemployed and struggling. Ultimately, God gives US the wisdom to make our decisions. We make our own choices, it's free will and I thank God for that everyday.

I think a better message in this economic downturn is that there is hope is a Savior who will be here when all of this is over! Oh, we'll still have problems and trials, there is NO getting rid of those. But, there is HOPE! Everything will pass away, a new Heaven and Earth will be created! And, the strife we go through now will be nothing if we don't have a personal relationship with JC.

I'm not a holy roller, but I've read so many comments on my blog, and knowing our family's personal circumstances two years ago. My mission is to try to offer hope to the hopeless, don't take advantage and show people that a reliance upon God will see you through! No one will find that on Wall Street...even when it's doing well!

I have to agree with Jim here, I don't think the B...

2009-06-01T17:37:52.219-04:00

I have to agree with Jim here, I don't think the Bible says anywhere that by becoming a Christian or following the right path, that you'll be comfortable, or that you'll never have hard times. In fact, many of us go through exceedingly hard times. I do believe, however, that God is with us through it all, and that he promises that we won't be given more to deal with than we can handle, with His help.

At our church they do preach about money sometimes, and they host a financial peace university class, but money isn't talked about that often. When it is, it is talked about within the framework sharing what we've been given, tithing, and how God has setup the tithe to change us as people - to make us more unselfish and caring people. Does anyone really think that God needs our money?

It sounds like maybe you've gotten a bad taste in your mouth because of preaching at your church about money - although i'm not sure what exactly turned you off. You say you don't attend very often, and you could very well have come right in the middle of a series on money - when the rest of the year they don't preach about money?

I do believe that there are a lot of people out there preaching and using the current crisis for their own gain. That's part of the problem with faith/religion - it's full of people who are fallen, and are sinners. People on the outside looking in see the sin, and the hypocrisy from some people - and brand the entire faith a failure. What they don't see, on the other hand, are all of the good people/preachers who are legitimately helping people with their preaching about money -and the help that they're giving through faith based financial classes.

As far as faith and finances being separate, I don't think they have to be. If you actually read a lot of the financial advice in the bible, it's good common sense advice about saving, diversifying, giving to others in need, not using debt, etc. I think if more people had followed the advice that's found in the bible, we'd be in a much better situation!

Okay, there seems to be major misconception here. ...

2009-05-04T20:16:00.000-04:00

Okay, there seems to be major misconception here. (Read on - I'll get there)

Maybe I'm the exception. My good friend and pastor hasn't preached a single sermon on money since we joined the church well over a year ago, and we attend every week. (You might say, "religiously") There seems to be a common misconception that after one becomes a Christian, attends church, or commits some good work in an apparent effort to appease God, all problems disappear. Well, guess what? The Bible doesn't say that followers of Christ will be necessarily financially sound, let alone "comfortable" in other aspects. I do sincerely believe that God will take care of my family, but it doesn't mean we'll be comfortable or that I'm entitled to a well paying job, notwithstanding a job at all. Some of the most content Christians I know have next to nothing in worldly possessions. "Blessed are the poor in spirit." The Bible does teach, in a very general sense, that one should be wise with money, investing it carefully, while simultaneously being generous to others who have less. There's no stamp of approval such that God smiles upon you when you follow the right financial path. Quite frankly, Christianity is about much bigger things than financial security, making yourself comfortable, or doing the "safe" thing on a day to day basis. American "Christianity" has become profoundly dilute by a sense of entitlement. I believe that statistics reflecting a waning impact of the Church in America are largely due to distorted expectations that necessarily will disappoint, and clergy who, for a variety of reasons, attempt to please the congregation with soothing, albeit dilute, preaching that avoids the difficult questions. [Steps off soap box]

Okay folks. Some great comments and appreciate eve...

2009-04-14T20:46:00.000-04:00

Okay folks. Some great comments and appreciate everyone keeping it civil here. As Corwin said, I am not a regular church goer and by no means an expert on religion. My point is that any entity that tries to "preach" is eventually going to fall. Look at Wall Street and our main stream media as an example. They said, save 10%, live frgually and you will be fine. Well that theory was debunked.

So when the "church" (broadly speaking) says we have sinned and by following the righteous path, all will be fine, I find that a bit hard to swallow. The blind following the blind is a recipe for disaster.

CEO's etc have definetly paid and many people I know working in these corporates have paid the price for theie comapnies failing (even though they did nothing wrong and went to chruch every Sunday!).

At the end of the everyone is entitled to their beliefs (that's what makes this country so great), but seperating religion from life is key - espically when it comes with dealing with finances. Infact, watch TV on Sunday mornings and many of these "TV" pastors are playing up the financial crisis to boost their audiences and donations. Makes me sick watching these people use God as a way to make themselves richer.

I say, rather than turn to the Bible, Koran or whatever text you follow for financial regulation - lets be proactive and as a nation set some rules for good finance. Starting with making it manadtory for all children to learn the basics of personal finance BEFORE they graduate high school. (going a bit off topic here so will stop...)

Even many clerics don't seem to realize how much c...

2009-04-14T06:35:00.000-04:00

Even many clerics don't seem to realize how much clout words that come from the pulpit have with believers. Too many people take what is said in a church as literal truth, without questioning its factual basis.

The day I heard from the pulpit that we were not good Americans and not good Christians unless we supported George W. Bush and what he was doing in Iraq was the last day I attended my former church. Just because a priest, pastor, or rabbi says something doesn't make it true or good for me and you. Not a money issue (although that administration's policies ultimately did have something to do with the financial predicament we're dealing with now), but the principal is similar: much of what is said in churches is self-serving, short-sighted, or downright ignorant.

I think two things are going on here, in this disc...

2009-04-13T18:38:00.000-04:00

I think two things are going on here, in this discussion.

1. Tony is writing in reaction to the notion that the church is using the financial crisis as a way to bolster their "sales". You shouldn't donate to the evil financial industry, you should donate to God (and the church) and then you'll be rich and prosperous like God wants you to be.

2. Curt is responding by saying that Christian financial fundamentals are clear and honest, and if everyone was to follow them, we wouldn't even be in the financial crisis.

I think that both of you are right, you're just talking about different people.

There are, have been, and always will be people who will use religion, God, and the church in order to make money. This financial crisis merely becomes an opportunity to using religious language as marketing speak for filling their own pockets, or the accounts of the church. This goes against what I believe the church and the scriptures are saying. So in that sense, Tony is completely right.

At the same time, Curt is also right in saying that if we all were to follow the biblical ideal of giving up our wealth, being without greed or envy, then yeah, we probably wouldn't be in this mess. But then again, if we followed all of the biblical ideals, there would be no murder, dishonoring of parents, and mixing of threads in our clothing.

So while its an ideal, it is not about to happen.

Curt,I won't argue with you on the teachings comin...

2009-04-13T11:20:00.000-04:00

Curt,
I won't argue with you on the teachings coming from the bible in regards to money management because it is probably true.

I think in general financial planners kind of ruined it for themselves with the advice they gave. They basically cut corners trying to get commissions and now they are paying for it.

I agree with you that they are in this situation and so is our economy because of the lack of sound money management and principles.

Pastors can take advantage of the situation to raise more money as a way of business.
Meaning he will say if they donate then they will have a spot in heaven, or their financial stress will go away.
In a way this is good and bad.
Good because they are essentially paying for a service, so in the back of their mind, they have that on their mind and they will start doing things differently. They have that sense that things will get better because they paid for service.
Bad because you are paying to have someone tell you things will get better without taking a reality check on the situation. So people might take it as is and just sit back and wait for it to get better instead of doing something about it.

Response to post:I am glad you wrote about this to...

2009-04-13T11:06:00.000-04:00

Response to post:

I am glad you wrote about this topic.
Church works for some people, others it doesn't and those left in the middle are doing it for the sake of doing, because they see others doing it so they don't want to step out of the comfort zone.

One thing that upsets me very well is how my parents constantly go on how money is evil, its the devil, they are out to take advantage of us, etc.
Sure to a certain extent it is true but this is how we learn and get through it.

I haven't really heard of pastors giving financial advice but I would assume even if they did, it wouldn't really be there place to do so. I know my church doesn't have like financial assistance or anything like that.

But I do agree that the church is a powerhouse and it uses that power for good and bad.

Tony,I'm surprise more people haven't come on by t...

2009-04-03T23:45:00.000-04:00

Tony,

I'm surprise more people haven't come on by to comment. If people had been following biblical principals we would not be in this miss.

You end with "People, companies and the government must take accountability for decisions they make." But they aren't are they?

Has any CEO resigned because of his/her part? Has any bank president resigned? Has any politician resigned? Has any person apologized for not reading and understanding their loan documents or worse yet, they did understand and did it anyway?

If there should be responsibility, why are we bailing out the banks, companies, car companies, etc.? No they should not be bailed out. They should be shut down and allow market forces to do what they should. If any bailouts should be handed out it should be to the people, companies, etc that were responsible? Instead we are racking up a tax bill of something like $25,000 to $35,000 per family.

The Bible talks clearly about greed, loans, usuary, etc. I wish pastors, elders, etc., insisted more financial teaching should be done, not less.

And not to be rude, but to criticize a church service, when you freely admit to hardly attending, does seem a little
disingenuous.

One point I can agree with, following the right path, does not guarantee to be free from trouble. Pain is a part of life, no matter what path you are on. Following the right path allows you to get through it, knowing God is walking through it with you.

And on other thing you are right about, I'm not sure God will save us from this. After all, we have to take responsibility, right?

Looks like this post stirred a bit of a hornets ne...

2009-04-01T22:03:00.000-04:00

Looks like this post stirred a bit of a hornets nest as it was also referenced by some other's online. It is unfortunate that Andy edited out one of my paragraps that would have really got the readers stirred.

Curt - The problem that I have with your comments is the one-sided nature that trust in god and all will be well. I saw your article in response to this topic and it is just as one sided as you say mine is.

I don't think financial planners job's are threatened. However I would rather trust someone educated about finance to talk about it. After all I don't want my financial planner preaching to me about God. No-one could have seen the magnitude of the crisis we have had.

I am not attacking the church. I definetly believe in God and see the people who spread the word having their place. However, let's not turn to the Church or religion for all our financial salvation. People, companies and the government must take accountability for decisions they make.

Are you kidding me?Clearly have not studied the bi...

2009-03-31T11:35:00.000-04:00

Are you kidding me?

Clearly have not studied the biblical teachings on financial matters when you say, "to say that if they had followed the "bible's teachings" we would not be in this mess - is to grossly oversimplify the situation."

There is a good case to be argued that ALL financial management and planning ideas are derived from biblical teachings. That means that nothing that you read about financial planning is original. It is ALL built off of biblical teachings. If fact, the biblical teachings about money are so foundational that many of the leading personal financial blogs simply focus on them, like http://www.christianpf.com/

You also seem to misread history when you say, "People were just as religious a few years ago as they are today, so why would should we expect that scripture will solve the nation's financial problems?"

As many as 80% of American's studied their bibles just 50 years ago, and we had sound money with a currency backed by gold.

Then you make your own sales pitch when you say, "I don't see any religious texts mentioning the evils of financial derivatives, hedge fund managers or credit default swaps. To effectively deal with financial hardship, see a qualified professional or contact one of many state assistance agencies. Just don't expect a miracle to suddenly solve all your financial problems."

I think your primary issue is that that you see the church as a threat to the jobs of personal financial planners. You don't like pastors teaching people about money, because that is the job of the personal financial planners.

But realize that most personal financial planners have lost their credibility when they didn't see the economic collapse coming because they failed to follow biblical teachings and focus on sound money, rather then gambling. And to say that the other guy did the same thing is not good enough.

Pastors teach from the original teachings. The only point I see you making is that some pastor will take advantage of this fiancial situation to grow their church, but I don't think that is going to be a viable model, as the money coming in will be decreasing while the needs are increasing. Many churches will likely be closing and the few pastors that find a way to help people with their personal finances will be helping the entire economy.

It makes little sense to attack the churches that are helping people to better their personal finances. But during an economic crisis people like to blame someone and if you cannot blame the politicians because you voted for them, them you pick someone else.

Thanks for the article. An interesting corollary ...

2009-03-31T10:59:00.000-04:00

Thanks for the article. An interesting corollary to the phenomenon of "following the right path will lead to financial security" is the attitude that if a person has wealth and security, they must be on the "right" path and therefore "deserve" their financial status, and those who do not have financial security likewise "deserve" their financial situation because they are obviously on the "wrong" path. This phenomenon is well-ingrained in our society, and it appears to be quite common among the upper levels of management at many corporations in our country. While I admire those who work their way up (being one myself), it is a bit of a slippery slope to think that we might be better, more worthy, than those whose financial state is less secure. As a religious person, I believe that we need to remember that we are all in this together, regardless of our beliefs or financial status.